A difficult situation, reposted for a friend by request

[naomikritzer]

A friend of mine is dealing with a fairly serious issue; she asked that her LJ friends re-post it with identities concealed so that she could get advice from a wider range of people than would be able to see her post.

I'll call my friend Lisa; her daughter (who I'll call Sara) is a preschooler, three(-ish) years old.



Sara has been going to this preschool five days a week for pretty much the whole school year, in a classroom with a teacher, an aide, and fourteen other children. It's a free, district-wide program that is considered to be excellent. Lisa likes the teacher, Mrs. R., and describes her as dedicated, kind, and loving to the children.

Late last fall, Sara was telling Lisa about being teased at school; initially it didn't sound particularly serious. But then she added, "And Adam touches me." Lisa said, "Oh? Where does Adam touch you?" Sara said, "On my ears, and on my bagina."

"Really? How did this happen?" Lisa asked (as calmly as she could).

Sara said it happened while they were standing in line, and showed her mother how Adam had put one hand on her shoulder and one on her crotch. They discussed what she could do if such a thing happened again. Lisa spoke to Mrs. R. the next day. The teacher was aghast and promised to keep a close eye on the situation. Lisa told her she understood that it's hard to see everything kids do, that three-year-olds sometimes bump up against others by mistake, etc. Mrs. R. noted that sometimes the children did see things at home they should not see and would imitate them with their peers.

Lisa noticed that Adam was a rough-and-tumble kid who would shove other kids out of the way, and that also he was very cute and charming. Sara quickly forgave him and has been friendly with him since.

So then this week, Sara told her mother about another troubling incident that happened with Adam, this time in the bathroom. She said, "Adam wanted to touch my bottom when I was going potty. I said, 'No, Adam! Don't do that!'" That's all there was to the story; Lisa asked what Adam was doing in the bathroom with her, but Sara didn't answer, probably in part because Lisa was clearly upset. Lisa is planning to ask her about it again once she's calmed down.

Lisa's question: what does she do now? Obviously she will talk to the teacher. Should she be requesting a meeting with the principal? She really doesn't want Adam in a classroom with her daughter anymore; are there options other than pulling Sara out of this school?

There are other preschools, but they think it would be hard on Sara to switch.



I offered up some advice on her original LJ post, but she would really like advice from a wider range of people. Just to remind people again, the children involved are both three or four (young four).

(Also, just to clarify for people who are wondering if this is one of those "I'm asking for a friend, really...." situations: this really is for a friend, and does not involve my daughter or for that matter any Minneapolis preschool.)

Comments

[journeywoman.livejournal.com]

I would escalate it to the principal. If Adam is doing it to Sara, it's quite possible that he's doing it to other kids, too.

If Adam is not removed from the classroom, or is under close supervision at all times (NEVER not watched), I'd pull Sara from the preschool. Sure, the transition will be hard on her--but so would being knowingly left in the same classroom as someone who is touching her against her will. Doesn't matter if they're both 3 or 4.

I might also teach her to yell, "NO! STOP TOUCHING ME!" if it happens again, and to tell a teacher immediately. Who knows if there will be another Adam in her next class?

[kristine-smith.livejournal.com]

I'm just pondering here, but is there any possibility that Adam is being abused himself? Would a child that young do things like that on their own, without having it been taught?

[naomikritzer]

Young children engage in all sorts of inappropriate behavior that hasn't been modeled for them, so it's not a foregone conclusion that he's being abused. All kids engage in a certain amount of solo experimentation, and some try to recruit buddies to participate.

It's also possible he caught a glimpse of a parent's pornography, or walked in while his parents were engaged in adult activities, or saw a non-pornographic movie that turned out to have some heavy sexual content -- all of these are undesirable but not abusive.

[swords-and-pens.livejournal.com]

Young children engage in all sorts of inappropriate behavior that hasn't been modeled for them, so it's not a foregone conclusion that he's being abused. All kids engage in a certain amount of solo experimentation, and some try to recruit buddies to participate.

Okay, then I have two thoughts on this:

1) If it is innocent experimentation, then I think the whole thing is being blown out of proportion. However, the original post didn't make it seem like that, and so I follow with:

2) If it isn't innocent, then we have to wonder why it is happening over and over.

I'm not saying it is one thing or the other, but if it is serious enough to consider pulling a child from the class, then it is serious enough to worry about the causes behind it. If it just "being curious", then I think it is something that should be handled in class.

But one thing I don't think is prident is to write off one end of the problem as innocent while beating the drums of alarm at the other end.

[naomikritzer]

It can be innocent (or at least non-pathological) on the part of one child and extremely disturbing to the other. To use a less-loaded example, some two-year-olds bite; they don't do it out of malice, but it still hurts like heck if you're the one getting bitten, and the preschool would take immediate steps to contain and control the biter (and might tell the parents that they had to remove the child, if their strategies didn't work, because it's not fair to the kids getting bitten).

And Adam may very well be the victim of sexual abuse. I just don't think that's a foregone conclusion from the incidents described.

[swords-and-pens.livejournal.com]

And Adam may very well be the victim of sexual abuse. I just don't think that's a foregone conclusion from the incidents described.

I completely agree. However, I think too many people are hesitant to bring things up that are "uncomfortable" when it deals with a child other than their own. This may very well be completely innocent; however, if it is not, how would a person feel if they later found out that Adam was being abused but it wasn't discovered until much later?

I'm just saying that the concern should be kicked up to the next level so that the appropriate people can keep an eye on things. It's not Lisa's job to try to figure out why Adam is doing this or to correct him; however, as a parent and member of the community, it is her responsibility to make sure another child's inappropriate/troubling behavior is duly noted by people who can observe and address it.

[naomikritzer]

And just to clarify, by "glimpse" I mean "walked in and saw something he shouldn't have" -- if an adult deliberately shows porn to a kid, that's sexual abuse, even if no touching occurs.

[rosefox]

She should absolutely talk with the teacher and the principal. Young children are very, very unlikely to develop that sort of sexual behavior on their own; my immediate conjecture is that Adam's been on the receiving end of that sort of touch and is just passing it along. The teacher and principal need to be aware of the problem because they have a responsibility to report suspected abuse.

[ellameena.livejournal.com]

Strongly agree, here. We are trying to adopt a child through the foster care system, so we've received a lot of information about these kinds of issues. Adam is exhibiting what is technically referred to as "sexually precocious behavior." This kind of thing could happen once, but the fact that he's been persistent about it is a strong sign that he has been sexually abused. The teacher is a mandatory reporter, so the mother should sit her down with some literature (google sexually precocious or similar terms) and recommend getting child protective services involved. The Mom can also make her own report. FYI, viewing pornography at this age is considered de facto abusive on the part of the parents, so it is no excuse not to be concerned (in response to an above comment). The law prohibits parents from exposing their children to pornography.

With regards to Sarah, my concerns would be minimal--just that she should always report inappropriate touching to grownups, that she did the right thing, Mom is taking care of it, etc. Adam and Sarah need to be kept strictly apart at preschool, and Adam should not be alone with any of the other kids. I might spend a day or two at the school and observe the routine to see if this is really practical. My son went to a preschool with semi-public toilet facilities, which is generally okay, but it would have been very hard to monitor interactions with a child like Adam. Most kids are still extremely innocent at this age, and barely know the difference between boy and girl.

[swords-and-pens.livejournal.com]

First, I think she should strongly express her concern to the teacher. Not in a "OMG how could you let this happen again!" way (that helps no one), but rather as a parent who is advocating for her daughter, because that is what she is doing. I also think that she should talk to the school Social Worker as well as the Principal. If this is a recurring issue, they need to come up with a plan of action because what Adam is doing can potentially impact every child in the classroom.

But even MORE imporatantly, if Adam is doing this, the school needs to consider *why* he is doing it, and what may be causing the behavior. It is possible, as the teacher said, that he is mirroring what he is seeing - or worse, experiencing - at home. The social worker and principal *need* to know for Adam's sake and the sake of the school. He's 3 - he's almost certainly not doing this out of any kind of malice. So what's left?

If there are alternate pre-school classrooms in that school, it may be worth looking into them. If not, it is going to come down to 1) trying to deal with the problem via the school and Adam's parents; 2) trying to get Adam removed from the class; or 3) removing Sara from that pre-school. It sounds like they are not comforatable with #1, and I don't know how possible #2 may be (or desirable, if he is having issues and they need to keep track of them to help him).

That leaves #3.

One thing I have to say is that, if Lisa really *is* concerned, and there is no other happy resolution, they should switch pre-schools without a second thought. Yes, Sara may be attached to it, but 3 years olds can be remarkably resilient. Switching programs at this age is not the end of the world, and odds are good that, after a little bit of a rough time, Sara will do just fine in a new setting (families move all the time after all, and those kids manage the change just fine). I think given the alterantive - leaving Sara in a class with a child who is touching her in ways she knows are inappropriate - has a far greater chance of impacting her in a negative way that transferring to a new school for the rest of the year.

It's sometimes hard as a parent to do something we know is best when the child doesn't understand the reasons and isn't happy about it. However, we are the ones who have to look out for them as best we are able. In the grand scheme of things, changing preschools isn't that big of a deal compared to some of the other things we will have to do as parents down the line.

But I have to say, I am now worried about Adam as well....

[littleclaypig.livejournal.com]

Am I correct in my understanding that at no point has the teacher or another adult authority figure sat Adam down and told him that it's not okay to touch girls in certain places? And that there will be consequences if he doesn't stop? It sucks that the behavior has been repeated, and I certainly understand that Lisa has qualms about keeping Sara in the school. What I don't get is why it sounds like no one's had a serious talk with Adam, especially since the actions being considered here are relatively drastic. Kids push boundaries. They hear jokes and stories about "baginas" and they know it's somehow taboo and it makes them want to touch them. Of course if there is sexual abuse here that needs to be dealt with; but he may just be trying to play doctor (like, um, I certainly did, and it's kind of shocking to me to see so many people running straight to conjectures of abuse). In any case, someone needs to tell him to knock it off.

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

I also played doctor at a very young age with my next door neighbor, and I certainly was not abused as a child. I'm fairly sure he wasn't either.

My first question would be "Has anyone spoken to Adam's parents?" Asking if anyone has told Adam that what he's doing is wrong would be my second question.

I would request a meeting with the teacher and the principal of the school. I'd make sure that they understood that Adam and Sara weren't allowed to be alone together, and then I'd make sure that the teacher and principal had a conversation with Adam's parents. It is perfectly possible that they will be horrified to find out that their child is doing this, and they'll work to remedy it.

If Adam's parents are horrified and are working to correct the behavior, I don't know that I'd pull Sara from school. I would sit her down, tell her that it's okay to not like what Adam is doing. I'd tell her that -- just like hitting -- some things aren't appropriate, but that it sometimes takes time for people to learn this. I would tell her that saying "No," is a good thing, and that I was proud of her for doing that. I would then ask Sara what she wanted. Does she want to stay at the school? What if Adam stays at the school? Does she want to stop going? Could she change to a different classroom? (If that's possible; I don't know.) Get Sara's opinion on this if she's capable of giving it.

[nayad.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't immediately assume that Adam had been abused, but it's a possibility that should be considered, just in case. He might simply be very curious, without an understanding of appropriate interpersonal boundaries, but he might be acting out a problem, so he should be observed, at least. Also, someone should clearly explain the boundaries to him, and the teachers should discuss the situation with his parents.

It's definitely important to get a satisfactory resolution to this for Sara's sake, and for her parents' peace of mind. I agree with another commenter that changing schools would not be likely to cause Sara any long-term problems.

Clarification on our options

[(Anonymous)]

This is in fact the only public preschool available. The only viable private preschool locally won't take Sara until she's older, next year, and would require cash that we'd have to scrape for. There is currently the option of putting her into a local private daycare (the local YMCA), but again, there's the money thing.

Re: Clarification on our options

[swords-and-pens.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry to hear that. That makes it much harder for you.

I suppose the first option, then, it to work with the teacher & principal (and school social worker, if there is one). Tigher monitoring of the kids, if the school has the resources. The teacher/school may have a plan of action in place for this kind of thing, too.

If the private options/YMCA is a last resort, you may have to give the current program one more try. It's very possible that with the right guidance, Adam will learn not to do what he has been doing. But you are going to have to decide where you (and Sara, and your family overall) are going to draw the line if it remains an issue.

No perfect choices, I know. :(

Broadening the opinion pool

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

If you're interested, I'll repost the scenario on my LJ and give a summary of opinions at the end of the day. I have a number of moms who have preschool aged children who would certainly give their blunt opinion. If you're not, that's fine as well.

It sucks that you have to deal with this. You have my sympathies.

Re: Broadening the opinion pool

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah...

So actually, I think that would be a good idea. Thank you.

Re: Broadening the opinion pool

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

It's darn near unanimous on my FL: Call a meeting of both the teacher and the principal. Insist, politely but strongly, that either Adam or Sarah be moved to a different class -- Adam for preference. Make sure that the teacher and principal look into Adam's situation and make sure that there's no abuse or other problems going on. Make sure that Adam's parents (via the principal) are aware of the situation and are doing something about it.

Also, some questions were raised along the lines of "Um, why on earth was Adam in the bathroom with Sarah?"

Hope this helps.

Addendum

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

Also, someone just asked if Lisa was friends with any other parents whose children are in the class. If so, a few questions in their ears might be able to tell if this is just a Sarah/Adam issue, or if it goes beyond that.

Good luck!

Immediate

[naturalfractual.livejournal.com]

1.) Leaving the school means that someone else will have to deal with the liitle boy - which means more victims.

2.) this is learned behavior - the boy is seeing or experincing something and acting upon it

3.) Run do not walk to the Pricipal, have a meeting with that person and the teacher and advise them that Social Services will also be involved unless this is addressed immediately.

4.) it is hard to watch a whole bunch of kids, but when you have identified a problem, that is what you watch. The little boy needs to be monitored more closely and kept away from little girls - if the school cannot and will not do this then this issue needs to be escalated

5.) this is not the sort of thing where you can say "Oh, I feel bad for . . ." or make excuses or feel uncomfortable. If my little girl were being victimized (and that is what is happening) I would be the charging lion. IF this girl is not feeling safe and protected, then her parents are not doing their job right. Harsh? It is the parent's job to protect their children. Children cannot be protected from everything, granted, but they can be protected from other children.

Meet with the people involved and FIND a solution. Do not accept denials or smoke - MAke the statement - this is what is happening - now WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?!

[redbird]

My only thought is that, in the next meeting with the teacher, make it clear that on $specific_date Sara told Adam "don't do that." It may be time for the teacher or principal to make clear to Adam that if another child tells him "don't touch me," he has to stop and not do it again. That isn't specific to touch that might be sexual--not everyone wants to have a friend who thinks it's cool to shove other kids out of the way.

Also, without knowing how the bureaucracy works, if someone is pulled out of the school, it should be Adam, not Sara--charming or no, he's the one making the place uncomfortable if not unsafe for at least one other child.

[ann-totusek.livejournal.com]

I would also strongly suggest contacting the Department of Human Services. They're in the best position to investigate what is (or is not) going on with Adam and protect Sara. They could, for instance, _require_ the pre-school to make him a one-on-one I suspect. And definitely escalate- tell the principal, and inform the principal that you expect them, as mandatory reporters, to make a report themselves. But since such reports are confidential and you won't know whether or not one has been made, make one yourself.

[porphyrin.livejournal.com]

I suggest two things:

1. Speak with teacher and principal regarding these concerns and see if Sara can be switched to a different classroom.

My reasoning is this: I know it's hard on her, but getting Adam switched to a different classroom, the way beauracracy works, isn't going to happen. Sara needs to be removed from the situation.

2. Call and report this to Child Protective Services. Sara's mom is not a mandatory reporter, but when children touch other children in this way, as a clinician I worry about abuse and also possible behavioral/mental disorders. Let's make sure Adam is not being neglected, abused, or not given the care he needs.

I'm sorry to hear about this. I also want to say that the 'authorities' will act as if this 'kid on kid' stuff is 'relatively minor'-- and to them, it may certainly seem that way, when one child touches another like this. Sara's mom may encounter a 'why are you calling us?' kind of attitude from CPS.

To me, though, I have to view it as a possible symptom of some underlying problem.

[ellameena.livejournal.com]

"I'm sorry to hear about this. I also want to say that the 'authorities' will act as if this 'kid on kid' stuff is 'relatively minor'-- and to them, it may certainly seem that way, when one child touches another like this. Sara's mom may encounter a 'why are you calling us?' kind of attitude from CPS."

*nod* This is why I suggested enlisting the preschool teacher, who is a mandatory reporter and will be taken more seriously. CPS tends to be overwhelmed with abused and neglected kids, so likely they will need more evidence to take action, but if there is something going on, and, say, an aunt or a babysitter makes a report later, this will really be helpful to have a record open.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

I'm really sorry Lisa and Sara are going through all of this. I send them virtual hugs and support.

I'm mostly reiterating what has already been said, but:

a. Lisa should immediately speak again to the teacher and to the teacher's superior. As much as possible, make it clear that you are not accusing the teacher of anything, but that this is very serious and you want to see it addressed immediately and that the teacher saying "I'll keep an eye on him" is not good enough. I also think you should *insist* that Adam's parents be told about this, if they haven't already.

b. I would tell Sara that if Adam (or anyone!) does anything like that again, she should say, or yell, "Don't Touch Me!" loudly. And/or that she should immediately tell the nearest adult. I would also tell her that you are going to talk to her teacher/principal/etc., so that she knows you are taking her seriously and addressing the issue.

c. however, at the same time I think it's important not to harp on it too much (e.g. asking Sara every day, "did Adam do anything today?") because that is likely to increase her anxiety. (it seems obvious that this will be a hard balance to strike! :( )

d. given that the preschool program is (if I understand correctly) run by the public-school system, you might also consider contacting someone higher up in that organization, like if there is a citywide education chief or similar. I wouldn't do this until/unless you speak to the teacher and principal and get unsatisfactory responses, though.

Overall I think that the "kids will be kids" attitude is damaging and should be firmly contradicted whenever you encounter it. The biting example given above is very apt. There are plenty of behaviors kids engage in that are "normal"/age-appropriate but still undesirable and requiring of action by parents/caregivers.

Whether or not Adam is being abused at home is kind of a separate issue. It's nice for Lisa to take that into consideration, but in essence it's not her problem. She needs to protect her own child first. Not that I don't have sympathy for Adam, because I *do* -- but if you put too much focus on Adam and not enough on Sara, you send the message that the offender is more important than the victim, and that's not the kind of message I want my daughter (or my son either for that matter!) to grow up with.

[maggiedr.livejournal.com]

I'd hate to see Sara moved from the class, because that sends her a message that she did something wrong. She did everything right: told Adam "no" and then told an adult.

On Adam's part, I don't think abuse can be assumed, but someone outside of either set of parents needs to take responsibility for investigating a bit further. Adam might have learned the behavior from an older sibling or other child, and his parents are currently clueless. But that's just more speculation, which is all any of us are doing with the little information we have.

I guess I'm saying that a decision is tough to make when the picture is still incomplete. A conversation needs to take place with the school principal, and she/he should have a plan in place for situations like this. If it were me, I would want to meet with the other parents, and their attitude would be a big factor on what I'd do next.

Sara needs assurance that she did the right thing, took the right actions, etc. Maybe mom can go to school with her for a day, to observe and help Sara feel protected. I don't think parents are overreacting here, because it would be foolish to ignore the boy's behavior. Hopefully, by taking it to the boy's parents, the issues will be resolved on their end of it, which is where the responsibility lies. OF course, if they act dismissive or indifferent, then the situation will become a lot more complicated.

[fracturedrefuge.livejournal.com]

I would also want to know if Adam's parents had been contacted about these incidents. If not, then I think the first step should be a meeting between the principal and both sets of parents. There should also be a serious sit-down talk between Adam and his parents, outlining the whole "good touch/bad touch" thing.

While I wouldn't go running to CPS just yet crying abuse, it is definitely a concern. I think I would be more concerned if the touching were accompanied by statements such as "Can I touch your bottom? It feels good."

And, finally, if the touching continues after all of this, Sara should not be the one that has to leave. Adam is the one that, after repeated warnings, is continuing to make the learning environment unsafe and uncomfortable for another child, Adam and his family should be the one to face the consequences.

[fehler.livejournal.com]

I'm also concerned that the parent heard about this from the child. I would hope that Sara learns to bring this issue to her teacher when it happens right away, so it can be handled and reported. The lag between when you hear it from your child and when it gets back to the teacher is troubling. Sara is comfortable telling her mother this. She should get comfortable telling her teacher this.

[allochthon.livejournal.com]

This response is more aimed at Naomi, because I hope you can translate my brainless to cluefulness for me.

I've been rereading The Gift of Fear, and last night started the chapter "Fear of Children." My interpretation of the advice in that chapter is pretty close the what has been said above: Sara acted just as she should, she said no and told an adult.

But the fact that Adam has done something like this twice is telling. Sara and Adam (or Adam and any other child) should not be left alone at any time.

The principle needs to be involved, pronto. And the school social worker, if there is one. Hopefully they will know what to do, but if not, protecting Sara is the highest priority.

And if Adam can't be made to stop, Sara should be moved out of the class. Make it clear to Sara that she did everything right, and that she isn't being punished by moving, but that her safely is the most important thing.

I agree that society should help Adam, and I hope that happens, but protecting Sara is absolutely the first priority.

Just because these kids are 3 and 4 doesn't mean this isn't serious. (It doesn't necessarily mean it is serious, either.) But it should be taken seriously and Adam needs to learn in no uncertain terms right now that what he is doing is wrong.

I don't know. I recommend Lisa read the "Fear of Children" chapter in The Gift of Fear. In my paperback edition, it starts on p. 254.

Good luck, Lisa.
And Naomi, please let us know (even with an "everything is ok") if this resolves. Thanks!