Because I am an idiot

[naomikritzer]

I wrote up a post last night that was intended to be friendslocked and filtered, then posted it publicly. I think it was up for about fifteen minutes in the middle of the night...which was long enough for it to go out in some people's RSS readers.

So if you got it, and you read it, don't feel too guilty, and it wasn't LJ's fault.

The gist of the post: Molly (who is currently in second grade) has taken to hitting her classmates. Regularly. Any time they piss her off. (For instance, by accusing her of touching the classroom gerbil and saying she should go wash her hands -- that was the problem yesterday.) The school has been handling this by removing her from the irritating person and sending her somewhere quiet to calm down, which alas, may have functioned as a really excellent positive reinforcement for the behavior they wanted to see less of. To make it even better, the quiet place is often the science classroom, and she LOVES getting to sit in on the 4th and 5th grade science classes -- she finds them much more interesting than her own. So, yeah. She went from being one of the good kids who caused no problems, to one of the kids whose mother is on the vice principal's speed-dial, over the course of two and a half months.

It's become a major problem -- the first Really Big Issue we've had with Molly, honestly -- and we're struggling with how to deal with it.

If you were once a second grader who hit your classmates, please feel free to tell me all about how you overcame or outgrew your aggression issues and are now a productive member of society.

Comments

[kathrync.livejournal.com]

My son was a biter. It would happen, sometimes completely out of the blue, and he would be as surprised as anyone by what happened. I'd like to say that we had some nifty program I could recommend to deal with that kind of situation, but I don't.

It is important to realize that behaviors exist in an institutional matrix, and what is normal or acceptable has a lot to do with what institutions (preschools, summer camps, public schools, day care operations, etc.) will tolerate. And part of what defines their tolerances is their insurance companies. Another thing that defines such things is other parents, and if the parent of the other child in a minor incident happens to be, say, a high powered corporate lawyer, then institutions can make the most callous and unreasonable decisions about your child.

In my experience, the main "cause" of violence in young kids who really don't want to hurt anyone is anxiety. Pressing the kid for explanations is counterproductive. Your daughter probably doesn't know why she did what she did, but she will make up an explanation if that's what she thinks you want. But what she did in the first place sounds like a stress reaction: She's stressed out at being a 2nd grader.

What did we do? We put him on medication via his neurologist: a very low dose of risperdal, one of those medications that people who write editorials about such things think is radically over-prescribed in kids. It doesn't completely stop impulsive aggression, but it gives him that extra micro-second or so to think before he acts which is a huge advantage. He's been on it since the summer between Kindergarten and first grade. He is still on it in the 6th grade. A couple of times over the summer we've tried taking him off it, but we did not feel that the public schools would treat him well as his unmedicated self.

Of course, there is an arms race between medication and expectations. If no kids were medicated in order to fit expectations, expectations would be less strict and the definition of "age-appropriate" behavior would be more tolerant, and academics would not be so ramped up, and there would be fewer institutional stresses on the kids because of these expectations.

So what would I recommend? Approach it as a stress issue and try to figure out how Molly could have a less stressful school environment.

[naomikritzer]

In my experience, the main "cause" of violence in young kids who really don't want to hurt anyone is anxiety.

It's interesting that you should say that, because during our (utterly unproductive) conversation yesterday, the one thing that I heard loud and clear was her anxiety. She was teased a lot last year; the teacher responded quickly and got things under control, and things have been much better in that area this year. (The teacher is the same this year as last.) I asked her why she didn't just go wash her hands, if that would have defused the conflict, and her answer was more or less, "if I show weakness, the jackals will descend." (I am paraphrasing, obviously. She used a lot more words, but that was what she was trying to tell me -- if kids think she can be pushed around, then she won't be safe.)

It is a good classroom environment for her in some important ways: she is working at a very advanced level academically, and her teacher is willing and able to accommodate that while also working with her on social skills. However, it is a very stressful classroom in others.

[ellameena.livejournal.com]

Your child is taking a powerful antipsychotic medication. He may very well need it, but I think you need to confront your neurologist if he led you to believe that it was being prescribed for stress. It's not a medication for ADD or for impulse control, so I think you should ask more questions (unless maybe you're talking about ritalin) and find out what they really think his diagnosis is. A psychiatrist should be supervising antipsychotic meds.

[ricevermicelli.livejournal.com]

I do not recall hitting my classmates in 2nd grade, but I was apparantly quite the academic disaster at the time, and I grew up okay.

I think I did anyhow.

Thought: If Molly is keeping up with the 4th and 5th grade science classes, is it really appropriate for her to be taking science with 2nd graders? If she is willing to scheme, plot, and make herself obnoxious in order to gain access to the science classroom, might it be a good idea to do something to get her into the lessons she enjoys when she's NOT in trouble? One of the known problems with gifted kids in school is that they do sometimes act out because they're so bored.

[naomikritzer]

Yes, letting her sit on on the older kids' science classes as a REWARD instead of a PUNISHMENT seems like a good idea, doesn't it? That was my idea and no one at the school seemed to like it very much.

The good thing about the Montessori environment is that they're pretty good about not boring her horribly. (She acts up when bored. Or rather, as her teacher put it last year, she starts finding ways to entertain herself and they're not what the teacher would choose.) The bad is that this one, at least, is not a low-stress environment.

[ukelele.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I was thinking this, and also thinking about stress above (and the fact that she may be too young to articulate her stressors clearly) -- if she is really enjoying going to the other science classes, it sounds like something may not be working for her in her present environment, and she's reacting negatively (in ways which may or may not relate directly to the thing that's not working for her). Obviously biting has to be addressed in the moment because it's just not acceptable, but something else may have to be addressed for any anti-biting to be effective. (Where "something else" may include changes to her environment and/or teaching her more effective coping skills. E.g. there are explicit social skills curricula for kids; maybe that's one thing that would help if the social environment is a problem. It's hard to change the whole environment; it may be easier to give her more effective tools for navigating it.)

[orthoepy.livejournal.com]

I second the acting-out-because-bored theory. I was in a perpetual state of pissed-offed-ness until about ninth grade, because I was bored to tears. (In ninth grade I really discovered boys. They were interesting.)

Anyway, you might want to ask the school to give her something even more boring to do, like writing lines (the same lines, not copying from something interesting like a dictionary) or sitting in a boring place with nothing to read (not the science classroom) and compound that with taking away fun things at home (TV, games, etc.)

Good luck. These things are SO HARD ... my son (8) has a problem with forgetfulness and evasion (e.g., I don't want to do my social studies homework, so I'll "forget" to bring the book home), and trying to come up with natural consequences for forgetfulness is difficult, too.

[naomikritzer]

Yes to the writing lines -- that's exactly what I suggested they do. The impression I got from the response was that the Behavior Specialist thought this was a great idea but couldn't do it unless I suggested it. It's too old-school punitive.

[ellameena.livejournal.com]

What are you doing at home to discourage her from hitting or fighting?

[ellameena.livejournal.com]

Sorry, that seems abrupt. Not meant to be. I just didn't want to jump in with assvice and tell you to do something DUH obvious. My son has been in a few fights, and although he hasn't been the "hitter" he's tangled with some.

[peacockharpy.livejournal.com]

Meg was hitting for a while -- only one kid, though. All attempts to make her understand that even if Davey wasn't her friend (her excuse) it was wrong, and that hurting people makes them feel bad and would make her feel bad if it happened to her came to nothing. Hers wasn't, so far as we could tell, acting out of anger; she was pretty calculating about it.

What finally worked? We read Ramona the Pest to her. She idolized Ramona (as I figured she would) and in the book, Ramona chases a little boy named Davey to KISS him, not HIT him. Meg did a 180 and decided she liked Davey after all. Then we had to have a talk about how you must ask people before you kiss them, and they have a right to say no and you have to respect that right... *sigh*

[thebluerose.livejournal.com]

Qualifier: I dont have kids but I was a bright kid once.

The gist of the post: Molly (who is currently in second grade) has taken to hitting her classmates. Regularly. Any time they piss her off.

Re her comment about showing weakness or the jackals descend.

Is it worth trying to point out that when they provoke her enough to want to hit then they *have* won, and she *is* showing weakness. The added comment on that is they have doubly won if she gets punished for that (even if the current punishment is more of a reward)

FWIW because I was a bright kid who did well at school but hated sports, I was always the odd kid out, didnt have many friends and spent a lot of time in my room reading. Academically I did ok, socially I certainly remember struggling, but it was also the beginning of the formation of my adult personality.

Looking back I can certainly see that I learned important things like self reliance and independance, how to entertain myself, how to learn from reading. I also conciously avoided a lot of kids at school, I dont remember being bullied much, and because I was recognised as a bright kid, I got a lot of requests for help from the other kids. I did really well at everything except maths, so I was kept in my age class for maths but was doing the year ahead classes for everything else from about age 9 onwards.

So I didnt hit, I withdrew (my parents were having issues and separated when I was 10 which didnt help much either)

[ciaweth.livejournal.com]

I hit people in middle school, and I did it because I was filled with rage and fear but had no outlet for it. Probably not the most comforting thing I could say, but there it is. I was teased mercilessly by my classmates, sometimes physically bullied (wet willies, thumbprints on my glasses, etc.), and when I felt I could get a sharp kick or a slap in without the teacher seeing, I'd go for it. I just wanted them to leave me the hell alone, and I was willing to resort to violence to make that happen. I would have welcomed going to the principal's office or someplace quiet. I felt nauseated every morning before school.

There wasn't one particular thing that made me stop slapping people. Teachers never sent me out of the room, so sitting there and being embarrassed about getting caught was kind of uncomfortable, I guess. I did end up having to sit at a table by myself, which protected me and my classmates from each other, but didn't allow me the convenient escape I would have preferred. Mostly people just stopped bullying me after a while because I started to fit in better, and so I stopped being so angry and frightened. Then high school came along, and I found a posse of fellow nerds and it was all good.

[pmrabble.livejournal.com]

That's been quite a few years for me! Similar issues in 1st grade, mostly driven by boredom. Since this was back in the early sixties, a few spankings (really, no big deal) were attempted, and then the cruel and unusual punishment was applied. No Books! For A Whole Week! That, plus getting some advanced reading as a treat when I did behave, seemed to do the trick.

I used to kick

[dmyersta.livejournal.com]

My Mom found an herbal supplement that helped the body deal with stress. My Mom also convinced my teacher to start teaching division, etc.

Re: I used to kick

[ukelele.livejournal.com]

Man, that's hard for me to imagine.

[http://users.livejournal.com/aseop_/]

I used to have temper tantrums in elementary school. I remember it was mostly caused by anxiety, when I was frustrated, usually because I was a bit slow and didn't understand. I got stressed out and would break down. Once in 5th grade in the middle of a tantrum I hit a girl, ironically enough she was trying to comfort me. Her parents were furious, but the principal did not expel me, I did get several lectures from my parents and the principal. Overall my parents were pretty supporting and didn't punish me seriously. I was teased a lot as a kid, and that lead to the frustration. My tantrums caused me to be ostracized even further, and that made me sad. As I grew older and caught up developmentally, they happened less and less. But I understand the anger and pain of being on the receiving end of a bully, and lashing out when you're stuck in a jam and you think there's no other options left.

Molly sounds like a smart girl, so I hope she will get past this without her social standing taking too much of a hit at school. I think suggesting alternatives to hitting people would be the best idea, that there are other options that won't get my teachers and parents angry at me. Good luck!

[corinnethewise.livejournal.com]

I didn't hit, but I did use pressure points. My dad taught them to me so that I wouldn't get picked on anymore (which happened a lot). Unfortunately my school wasn't too big of a fan, and I got punished and had to stand on the wall at recess, which was a punishment more for the public humiliation aspect of it, because that's where the bad kids had to stand and everybody could see you. That was enough of a motivator for me to not continue fighting back. Of course, the downside was that I still got picked on until high school. So yeah... I'm not positive there's really a good solution. Using non-violence to combat oppression usually results in more oppression for a while. Does she have any friends who could back her up? Obviously continuing to hit isn't really an option. Is there anyway she can go to a teacher or an aid when she's being picked on instead of hitting? Is the problem that she doesn't have time to think of another reaction? Or is she thinking and making the decision to hit? I'm not really sure this is all that helpful, but I survived getting picked on and I would like to think I'm doing pretty well now, so at least it can be done.

[naomikritzer]

Despite Molly's anxiety about it, the school DID crack down on the teasing last year. In general, teasing is far less tolerated now than it was when any of us were kids. (When I was a kid, the "solution" to teasing was for the victim to "ignore" it, which, as my friend Elizabeth noted yesterday, did not work, at all, ever.)

I'm not 100% sure whether she's thinking (at least a little bit) and making the decision to hit, or if she gets angry so quickly she doesn't have time to think about alternatives.

Also, I should note that not all her hitting is in response to genuine provocation. Last week she had an incident where two girls bugged her about something; she was annoyed by this, so when another kid said, "aren't you the snack host? because we're out of napkins" she kicked him. He wasn't teasing her; she WAS the snack host, and she DID need to put out more napkins, as she admitted, grudgingly, when I asked her about it. ("Snack host" is one of the rotating classroom jobs.) (Oh, she also insisted that she hadn't kicked him; she had kicked the AIR, near him, and everyone insisted she was TRYING to kick him but she wasn't, she was kicking the air.)

"productive member of society": I forgot to add the good part.

[kathrync.livejournal.com]

My son was not a good fit for his highly rated elementary school, and the district moved the fifth grade to the middle school a few years ago. (By the end of elementary school we had an attorney.) I had been repeatedly warned by the school psychologist that the middle school would make many more demands on him than the elementary school. So I tried desperately to get him into a different school so I didn't have to send him to the middle school.

But the elementary school shrink lied: the middle school is much more flexible and accommodating than was the elementary school. After years of academic struggles and social alienation, for the first quarter of this year, there he had enough actual friends for us to hold a birthday party plus on his first report card he got an A- average. So just now, things are going great.

[sylvia-rachel.livejournal.com]

I was relentlessly bullied most of the way through elementary school and into junior high. I didn't hit my classmates, though; instead I threw tantrums at home (until I was at least nine), developed stress symptoms of various kinds, including at one point an eye-twitch, clung to "friends" who were horrible to me because every so often they'd be not-horrible for a day or two, and beat up on my little brother.

So what I'm saying is, it could be worse :P

For one thing, you are already way ahead of where my parents were because you know what's happening at school. (My parents didn't, because I never told them, and neither did anyone else. I'm not sure whether the schools just had no idea what social bullying looks like, or whether they genuinely didn't see what was happening, or whether it wasn't the done thing in those days to call parents about incidents like child's "friends" forcibly remove child's boots and socks so she has to chase them through the snow, barefoot, to get them back.) Somehow or other I did turn out OK -- I theorize that I was saved from total self-destruction by being involved in a variety of extra-curricular activities with kids who did not go to my school and therefore did not know that I was a social outcast and were perfectly willing to be my friends.

My little brother, who had much more serious problems at school because he wasn't an overachieving little so-and-so, which meant he was bullied and got lousy grades, has also -- though with more bumps in the road -- grown up to be a real mensch and a socially responsible, gainfully employed person.

It does sound as though the school environment is stressful for Molly, and also as though the consequence they're imposing is being processed as positive rather than negative. I'm curious to know why the school isn't willing to try using the 4/5 science class as a reward. Following on from what you're doing at home, would they be willing to consider cleaning or similar chores as a negative consequence at school? (I realize that may or may not be an option; at my daughter's school, most of the classroom chores are assigned to kids on a rotating basis, and some of them are actually coveted jobs.)

But ... it also sounds like she knows hitting is a bad idea but doesn't have enough other tools in her toolbox. I was always told to ignore pestering and the pesterers would go away; it never really worked, because they always seemed to be able to keep it up longer than I could, but it also didn't get me in as much trouble as retaliation would have. I'm not sure anything really works, but smart remarks would be better than hitting, right? Would role-playing and brainstorming strategies and responses possibly be helpful?

[naomikritzer]

Classroom chores are assigned on a rotating basis. The tedious negative consequence I suggested to the behavior specialist was writing lines, and he said he'd have her do that.

Teasing and bullying are taken much more seriously now than in the 1970s and 1980s. When Molly was being teased last year, the teacher took steps to stop it, which at least decreased it a whole lot. (I was discussing this with my friend Elizabeth yesterday. We were both teased as kids, quite a lot. Elizabeth commented that she was also always told to ignore it, and this never worked, ever.) But I should note that it's not like she's hitting in response to teasing. Fear of teasing is a component, but she's hitting in response to normal kid obnoxiousness like line-cutting, she's hitting in response to things like someone bugging her to put out napkinds when she's snack host, all kinds of things like that.

[coldtortuga.livejournal.com]

One thing I've observed at our karate school is that it's difficult to get people (of any age) to harm each other. They'll smack or push or kick the air or any of a dozen less-lethal variations, but it can take *years* to convince someone to just throw an honest punch towards that target 4" behind the nose.

Thankfully it sounds like Molly is still at that reluctant-to-hurt-them point, and she doesn't want to go all the way. That means that at some level, she's thinking about what she's doing when she does it.

Maybe if the teacher supports her with another outlet for her frustration/anxiety? If she finds herself frustrated/anxious enough to smack someone, then I think she should be allowed to put herself in time-out for a couple minutes. Then she can come back to the class and wash off her gerbily hands or get more napkins or whatnot. A couple minutes is just a little delay --- short enough so that nobody should be permitted to impose upon her during that time-out. (That includes lectures from the teacher, polite requests from other students, etc. Two minutes is two minutes.)

[naomikritzer]

She is allowed to go to the "take a break" chair, but I'm not sure if kids are prevented from bugging her while she's there, if she does that. I will ask the teacher about it.

I thought about suggesting she go to the bathroom the next time someone's bugging her. I used to do that sometimes. Heck, I still do that...

[yankee-in-texas.livejournal.com]

I gots no real help for you.

I think some of the suggestions here are good: truly negative (but not evil) consequences for hitting, an alternative to hitting that works for her, a smackdown on the teasing that stresses her out.

Mostly the alternative to hitting thing. That seems the most likely to stop the hitting. But the anxiety that's making her more likely to hit is an issue too. Maybe you and she could talk about what's making her upset?

Nearly Pointless Story:
When I was in 2nd grade and repeatedly wrote in my journal in big huge letters "I DO NOT LIKE WRITING IN MY JOURNAL" to fill the daily writing page, the teacher asked if there was some problem in my life, at home or at school. I thought pretty hard and came up with the teasing I was getting every day on the bus from an older girl named Meredith, who I still remember with hate. The teacher talked to my parents and to Meredith and she left me alone and life was better and I still hated writing in my effing journal.

The Point:
The point being, maybe if she thinks about what in her life at home or at school isn't going how she'd like it, she'd come up with some stuff nobody knows about. Maybe not, too.

[chrysoula.livejournal.com]

Hrm.

My husband suggested the boredom thing; he got in trouble a lot in second grade and didn't have the 'punishment' of an interesting class to encourage him, either.

After reading all the comments, I am... more thoughtful. Mostly I'm recalling my own bursts of violence at various points in my schooling. Almost always after provocation, including threats, but, looking back, it was almost never something I have ever regretted; I learned important lessons from them about social posturing, empty threats and my ability to defend myself-- I felt ultimately empowered by the experiences.

I also had problems with social cues up to high school or so, when all my assiduous study of my classmates finally paid off.

So Molly says she knows hitting is wrong, but I wonder if she really /feels/ that way or just 'knows' it. I wonder if she's getting something out of it that contradicts the 'knowing its wrong'. Not just the interesting classes, but... I wonder how the other kids react when she hits them?

And my attention was caught by her explanation about not wanting to show weakness. Maybe she goes to the hitting because she knows and understands the results, because choosing to initiate violence restores a measure of predictability and control to a situation she's otherwise floundering in, or at least keenly feeling her inferiority in. I'd guess she /knows/ that she's pretty bright, so it must be frustrating to not understand how to, say, make people stop bugging her. Changing the method of interaction might also (temporarily) restore the 'social' advantage to her.

If other more constructive solutions don't work, maybe look into other ways to allow her to (in her own head) regain some social ground? Learning and using insults in an obscure language (probably also inappropriate) or something else that lets her reassure herself she is bright and confident and capable of shaping the world around her.

This is probably cluttered and incoherent, but I hope not. No time to revise right now unfortunately. Good luck.

Behavior

[rudbeckia1.livejournal.com]

Hey Naomi -

I did hit a few kids in elementary school, and to some extent I sympathize with Molly. I'm not saying that the behavior is acceptable - but I've been there and remember it well.

I was teased pretty badly throughout elementary school. Girls seem to learn some pretty vicious teasing early on - boys may too, but the dynamic seems different. The teasing got to the point where several other girls would insist that anything or anyone I touched had the "Shira touch" and was polluted. I told my parents about this, and they tried to intervene with the school, but the response was basically "girls will be girls" and the whole "sticks and stones" crap. After this went on for a while, I hit one girl and kicked another.

When my parents were told, they said that while my response was harsh, it was ultimately a response. They told the teacher/principal that they felt that at some point I had to defend myself, which made the school take notice. So the hitting had the effect of finally getting some real discourse going about the teasing, and did stop some of the teasing, since the other girls were NOT expecting that. Now, I know things have changed in schools in regard to tolerance of both teasing and hitting, and I went to a private school, but I think there are some common themes. Teasing, even very nasty and insidious teasing, can be either undetected or not believed by teachers/parents, while physical fighting is obvious and generally not tolerated. I think the teasing can frankly be worse - and while I think schools are recognizing that, they have a hard time imposing definitive policies on it because it can be hard to observe.

I think boys fight physically more, or perhaps it's more accepted and viewed as normal. I think it's important to respond to any hitting or other physical violence in school, but I think that's part of school - addressing it while kids are this young. But I also think that emotional violence, e.g. teasing, is equally unacceptable, and that's something that I think schools are lagging on, although I haven't been to one in a long time.

But bottom line, yes, I hit some kids in elementary school, but never after the 3rd grade. So I would not really worry about Molly- address it seriously, but I don't think it means anything about who she is, other than she's nobody's doormat.

BTW, from what I've seen of Molly she's exceptionally bright, and I really mean that. Possible that she's bored at school?